What Kind of Whip-Tail?

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » 04 Feb 2003, 00:32

Here's my Whip-Tail. Sorry about the Pic.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 04 Feb 2003, 01:57

Hi!

Well there are several species that have quite the same colouration, a pic of the ventral armor plate would help for the ID purpose!
Personnally I would go with Hemiloricaria parva!
Cheers
Yann

Achim · Post by **Achim** » 04 Feb 2003, 09:17

Hi,

Especially the grey/brownish Rineloricaria species (including Leliella, Hemiloricaria and Fonchiichthys) are hard to determine without knowing where exactly they come from.
Make a picture showing the fish lateral where we can see the caudal and dorsal fin. A photo of the ventral plating could help too, like Yann said.
I have never seen "the real" H. parva or a picture of it, so i can't say anything about that. My best guess would be H. morrowi Fowler 1940 (The yellowish species determined by Franke as H. morrowi is not H. morrowi), but thats just a guess.

Greetings... Achim

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 04 Feb 2003, 11:03

Hi!

Well I would say the "yellow" colour is probably due to either the water and/or the lightening.
H. morrowi is given at a size of 16.5cm , and the fish pictured there is far less than this, still it seem not really far from adulthood. I would say this one will not grow bigger than 10cm.
Cheers
Yann

Achim · Post by **Achim** » 04 Feb 2003, 11:39

Yann,

Well I would say the "yellow" colour is probably due to either the water and/or the lightening.

Not in this case. The males of that species (afaik not yet described) are as yellow as Hemiloricaria sp."red" is red. Of course there is some variability, but the overall yellowish colouration stays (I know that colouration is a bad characteristic for determination). Isbrücker determined H sp. "yellow" as H. morrowi and Franke published that. However in the "Welsatlas" by Evers/Seidel (which was persued by Isbrücker), they write H. sp. "yellow" is not H. morrowi and i trust them in that matter.

H. morrowi is given at a size of 16.5cm , and the fish pictured there is far less than this, still it seem not really far from adulthood. I would say this one will not grow bigger than 10cm.

You are right about the holotype of R. morrowi having a size of 165mm. However, i have seen H. eigenmanni (which can grow to 120mm and more) at a size of 70mm with the males having full blown beards. The secondary "Geschlechtsmerkmale" (i don't know the english word for that, sorry) have little correlation with the size in Rineloricaria (Hemiloricaria... ) species.
My guess of that fish being H. morrowi was due to the similar colouration to the fishes E&S picture in the Welsatlas. Interestingly they specify the overall-length of H. morrowi with 120mm.
BTW: What makes you think this is H. parva? ;)

However, we can't say anything until we have more photos

Greeting... Achim

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 04 Feb 2003, 12:15

Well!

If you look at the picture you wil see that the gravel and and the loach are way to " yellow", that is why I am more thinking at a water or/and lightening view.

Secondly I find that the present fish as way to much " head pattern" and the black band seem to be smaller here.

Regarding H. parva, I know that many Hemiloricaria are usually imported, sold under that name, but because of these head markings I am thinking at that fish.
Sure we will need a shot of the ventral region to have an accruate ID!
I also know that colour markings are not very accruate but at least it does give you a direction to work with!

Cheers
Yann

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » 04 Feb 2003, 16:27

I'll have some better pictures in about 3 hours. Yeah it does look yellowish. I'ts my new digi camera i just got last night. That was a quick shot of him.

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » 04 Feb 2003, 21:25

I hope this is better for you.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 05 Feb 2003, 19:20

Hi!

Well it is a male for sure as you can noticed the odontodes on the cheek , top of the head and on the pectoral fins!
I still believe this one is Hemiloricaria parva!!!
Cheers
Yann

Achim · Post by **Achim** » 05 Feb 2003, 19:52

Hi,

Well it is a male for sure as you can noticed the odontodes on the cheek , top of the head and on the pectoral fins!

right.

I still believe this one is Hemiloricaria parva!!!

Very difficult to say what species this is imo. I dont have Boulengers description of H.parva or any newer scientific work with a detailed description or picture of the species. What literature do u base your determination on Yann? The problem is in aquarium literture various Rineloricaria (Hemiloricaria etc.) are described as H. parva. Among other things H. fallax, H. eigenmanni and H. castroi.
Now with the other pictures i don't think this may be H. morrowi any longer, but i don't have a well substantiated suggestion. Maybe H. eigenmanni or H. castroi.
IMO its impossible to determine many of those Rineloricaria thingies without knowing where it comes from or morphological studies on the dead fish. The little differences between the species and the great variety makes it even harder.

Achim

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 05 Feb 2003, 20:08

Hi Achim!

So far I am just basing myself on a little fact sheet on scotcat. I really would like to be able to see the ventral armor plate to make it more accruate. So far my identification is more a guess than any thing.
Graeme: if you could do such pic, it does not necessarily to be made while the fish is in the tank you can make an outof water shot, the most important thing is to take the ventral region between the pectoral and pelvic fins!!!
Cheers
Yann

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » 05 Feb 2003, 21:37

When i got him the Lfs say's that it's a Rineloricaria Fallax. I just wanted to make sure what type it was. Thanks all for you help guy's. I'll try to get new pictures and hopefully a out of water shot.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 05 Feb 2003, 21:48

Hi!

Well H. fallax and H. parva have been put in synonym for some time but I guess it has change since! In many books you will find H. parva to be synonym of H. fallax, still H. fallax is a different looking species.
It isn't necessary that the fish is out of the water, but I think it will be faster this way than waiting for him to stick on the side of the tank...
Cheers
Yann

Post by **Shane** » 05 Feb 2003, 21:53

Just to point out that what Graeme says is very true... It is almost impossible to identify any of these fish. Even having exact location data also does not help as I have collected a half dozen or more spp. throughout South America and even with exact provenience data (since I caught the fish) I have never been able to 100 percent identify a single species. The fishes just all look too similar. I have even preserved several specimens and taken very good counts with hopes of identifying them. That did not help either.
-Shane

Achim · Post by **Achim** » 05 Feb 2003, 22:24

Hi all,

at least one thing is clear: this fish isn't R. fallax. R. fallax shows a black dot right in front of the dorsal fin, which this fish doesn't show.
The genus Rineloricaria is in desperate need of a revision. Unfortunatly afaik noone is working on it (noone wants to i guess...

.

Achim

Ben · Post by **Ben** » 06 Feb 2003, 05:35

Hi Graeme,

Looks very much the same as mine. I did a good bit of diggin on it too, and eventually came to about a 90% conclusion that it was H. parva. This was a couple months a go, and I'm no where near as sure now!

The more I've read about the varrious types of whiptails, the more confused and unsure I've become :/

Ben

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » 06 Feb 2003, 11:45

Hey Ben. They do look alike dont they! I not sure aswell as to which type of Whip-Tail he is. Maybe we have one of the unamed species that are being exported around Like Shane say's. Cool Cat's anyway.

Thanks.
Graeme.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » 07 Feb 2003, 02:53

LOL, yah, you could say they are twins

It would surprise me in the least if it's an ".sp" oh well. You are right thogh, very cool cats! I find mine to be the most gentle fish in my tank. I have him literally eating out of my hand

Graeme wrote:Hey Ben. They do look alike dont they! I not sure aswell as to which type of Whip-Tail he is. Maybe we have one of the unamed species that are being exported around Like Shane say's. Cool Cat's anyway.

Thanks.
Graeme.

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » 07 Feb 2003, 22:59

What temp is the best for him? At the moment it's 77. Is that okay for them? I herd that they can live in coolish water aswell as warmer.

Thanks.
Graeme.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » 08 Feb 2003, 05:01

I've got mine in a tank holding steady around 72, and it's perfectly happy. Haven't tried him in anything cooler than that. Not sure I'd want to risk it.