Pre-CSG Show meetup?

[Jools]

I've had a fair bit of discussion with folks on and offline about this. If the CSG introduce a rule that all fish shown can be photographed, then it's maybe going to make some folks think twice about benching their fish - I agree with that sentiment - but is a show for the show-ers or for the wider audience? Is a good show measured by the size of the audience or by the number of fish shown? Or the quality of the fish shown? One is put in mind of the episode of "All creatures great and small" where the good village vet is asked to judge the pet show at the local fete and despite the macaw and other fine beasts present, goes for the plain old goldfish as the keeper clearly knows more about his charge than any others there. Our vet is just not on the same point of view and everyone else doesn't get it.

I don't really have a view on photography stressing the fish at shows. I photograph all my fish regularly, but rarely in a photo tank. The latter being a much more stressful experience for them and akin to being benched. I know next to nothing about showing too as some of you have helpfully pointed out.

On thing is certain and that is that more photos will be taken at shows with time as everyone appears to be a photographer these days. I was struck this weekend while attending an Aunt's 80th birthday party that when she cut her birthday cake the whole room went up with cameras. Ones that will take good pics in the conditions, some "point and shoot" digitals and a few camera phones which are mostly poor quality - fine for facebook but not really what you want to put in a family album. The same thing I can see happening at shows. I think I may have picked up a slight sun tan from the exposure.

Something along the lines of a photography half hour or perhaps limit photography to show officials (including sponsors I add with Planet in mind ) might do the trick - but it needs to be a blanket rule and it needs to be well publicised (big signs on the wall) IMO. I like the idea of "no uploads" of any pics taken (to address the control issue which I think people taking this path do have) but I much prefer the idea of putting names there and making any image taken accreditable to (or even IPR of) the owner. Images taken at shows are very noticeable and easily tracked back to any culprit abusing this trust.

So, my end pence worth is that this business of tiptoeing between individual decisions per exhibit is just going to end in narkiness - and that's to be avoided even if it means an increase in officialdom.

Jools

[Coryman]

It would be a very difficult task to run a profitable a fish show on its own, more especially a specialist show like the CSG. Incorporating an auction is without doubt the way to go, but it does have its draw backs as Jools says, with a definite two if not three way divide among the attendees. Those that are there to show their fish and gain awards, those there to make money from their fish and those just there for the cheep bargain. I would bet that more than half of the people attending the CSG event never went near the show room.

The photography issue will be resolved at the next CSG committee meeting in October. And unless there is a concrete proposal to the contary as far as I am concerned it will return to the status quo, where photography will be alowed after the judging has been completed and permission has been granted by the Show Secretary. Whatever the ruling I will publish it here so everyone will know exactly where they stand.

As I said before, there has never been an issue in previous years and the same people were showing many of the same fish, which they now do not want photographed. Again my personal view is if you don't want your fish photographed don't bring them.

Ian

[Jools]

I'd still like to credit the owner of the fish in some way - would it be possible to mandate that any images taken must be credit to the owner and the owners details are on the tank? Or if they're not then they won't be credited?

Cheers,

Jools

[MatsP]

I'd still like to credit the owner of the fish in some way - would it be possible to mandate that any images taken must be credit to the owner and the owners details are on the tank? Or if they're not then they won't be credited?

Cheers,

Jools

I like that idea a lot. I mean, credit to the owner should be given, but if the owner doesn't identify him/herself (or for some reason want to remain anonymous), then it's a bit hard.

--
Mats

[Jools]

Well, let's leave it with Ian and his CSG committee and see what they decide. We are after all but members and sponsors! I'll need to put some madtoms on the bench next year!

Jools

[Richard B]

If i have no other commitments, can find showtanks, & manage to get off my a*se, i have 4 fish i'd like to show, but it'll be my debut.....

[medaka]

I'll need to put some madtoms on the bench next year!

.Now , now;.......young man! You know you need a license to keep these in the UK, and the CSG show secretary will need to see it, before you can enter it in a CSG show.

[Jools]

I'll need to put some madtoms on the bench next year!

.Now , now;.......young man! You know you need a license to keep these in the UK, and the CSG show secretary will need to see it, before you can enter it in a CSG show.

Says who? Can you point me in the direct of the legislation becuase I am not aware of it...

Jools

[The.Dark.One]

I've corresponded with CEFAS and they have confirmed that you do not need a licence to keep North American cats, just one to trade in them. I've sent the email to Brian Walsh.
The only coldwater cat you need a licence for is a Wels.

[MatsP]

The only coldwater cat you need a licence for is a Wels.

That's clever - whilst I don't really think it makes sense to keep S. glanis, it is already well established in this country. Most others are (to my knowledge) not established [at least not WELL established], so let's forbid the one that already is established, but let people keep the ones that aren't. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense - because we of course KNOW that the one is established can establish itself here, but the ones that aren't established we don't know yet whether they can or can't, so no point in making them forbidden.

I'm not trying to say Jools shouldn't be allowed to keep these, but government rules seem all wrong to me.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

Stupid as the rules are, you might still have a chance. Here they are native, and endangered, so protected by law.

It is forbidden to own protected species, or parts of them, amongst other things

They are endangered because of water pollution, not fishing, but hey, who cares?

[medaka]

medaka wrote:
I'll need to put some madtoms on the bench next year!


.Now , now;.......young man! You know you need a license to keep these in the UK, and the CSG show secretary will need to see it, before you can enter it in a CSG show.


Says who? Can you point me in the direct of the legislation becuase I am not aware of it...

Jools

ALSO

I've corresponded with CEFAS and they have confirmed that you do not need a licence to keep North American cats, just one to trade in them. I've sent the email to Brian Walsh.
The only coldwater cat you need a licence for is a Wels.

I remember this topic was discussed some moons ago.

I was referring to the defra site information.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/fisher ... e.htm#XFER

in part:

The 1981 Act is complemented by the Prohibition of Keeping or Release of Live Fish (Specified Species) Order 1998. This Order made under the Import of Live Fish (England and Wales) Act 1980. Two separate, but almost identical, Orders for England and Wales - The Prohibition of Keeping or Release of Live Fish (Specified Species) (Amendment) (England) and (Wales) Orders 2003 - were made in 2003, which extended the list of specified species. These Orders make it an offence to keep or release any of the non-native species listed

also see:
http://www.efishbusiness.co.uk/formsand ... eaflet.pdf
&
http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/fisher ... pecies.pdf

[The.Dark.One]

The leaflets etc are outdated. It states that the rules on Ictaluridae etc will be reviewed in the mid 2000's but this didnt happen.

CEFAS has issued a 'general licence' which means (at the moment) that individuals wanting to KEEP these fish don't need a specific or individual licence. Only those who want to trade in them need an individual licence.

So in effect the CSG showing rules which state entries cannot be accepted into the coldwater catfish class without production of a licence are incorrect (unless someone shows a Wels).

As i said, the correspondence from CEFAS has been sent to Brian so it can be discussed by CSG.

From the same site Adrian quotes from it says (I've highlighted the relevant parts):

"All those wishing to keep any of the listed species, including fish farmers, fish dealers, wholesalers, retailers, hobbyists and owners of fisheries require an individual licence to do so. However, those wishing to keep grass carp, sturgeon/sterlet and ameiurid (ictalurid) catfish in garden ponds and indoor aquaria or red shiners and fathead minnows ('roseyreds') in indoor aquaria (other than aquaria on retail or wholesale premises) are covered by a general licence which is held by Defra and therefore need not apply for individual licences. The general licence as it applies to ameriurid (ictalurid) catfish and sturgeon/sterlet is currently being reviewed.

[Jools]

You'll also find that Scottish legislation differs - that's what I was getting at. I'm not clear of CEFAS' remit is UK or limited E&W to be honest. The link appears to be E&W and I have gone through the process in Scotland and I do not need a licence to keep them.

It's worth re-iterating the species list says catfish species of the genera

Ictalurus

,

Ameiurus

and

Silurus

are included and madtoms are not listed. I checked this with the Scottish Government and I don't need a licence.

The term ameiurid is a bit odd too, I think it means the genera

Ictalurus

and

Ameiurus

but try googling it and you find it appears to be little used (dare I say, made up!).

How far off topic can a post go! Let's find out...

Jools

[CoryWally]

apparently its O.K. to keep them in Scotland, but only if you deep-fry them first.

[Jools]

apparently its O.K. to keep them in Scotland, but only if you deep-fry them first.

Yes yes, very funny. Also would it be true to say it's OK to keep them in England as long as it's in a balti?

Jools

[Richard B]

apparently its O.K. to keep them in Scotland, but only if you deep-fry them first.

Yes yes, very funny. Also would it be true to say it's OK to keep them in England as long as it's in a balti?

Jools

Not at all - the Balti is the pride of the "brummies" & not atributable to any other area of England You should've gone for chicken tikka masala as apparently it is our new national dish (according to some data survey i saw somewhere last year)

[medaka]

Ah!

Maybe we can see some non native stuff at the Scottish Aquarist festival

[Coryman]

Sorry for bringing this back in line, well nearly, but By putting anything on a show tank other than the class identification sticker provided when booking fish into the show and a label with the name of the species in the tank, there should be no other labels or marks on the tank, which would make the entry readily identified as belonging to a particular person and there by affording an advantage, if the judge presiding over that particular class be acquainted with said person and therefore may favor that particular entry.

In the past at some shows rules were set to try and make the presentation of show tanks as anonymous as possible to minimise the chances of judges favoring friends entries. In many cases exhibits were disqualified if there was anything out of place, even the little pieces of glass or marbles attached to the lids a lifting handles were considered as identification marks. So to put ones personal details on a show tank would result in far more disquiet amongst exhibitors than ever there was over the photography issue.

As far as the cold water cats are concerned, we will look at what legislation is in place and amend the rules accordingly. I think the one cold water entry we had this year was the first we had had in ten years, I don't think there is much chance of being over run, but it would be nice to see some on the show bench. I may even be tempted to bring a few back with me the next time I am over in the US.

Ian

[Jools]

I see the point Ian, but the names are published at the end with the results. So, OK, don't put them on tanks, but have a list that can be handed out when the photography is allowed? Even if the tanks were anonymously numbered?

I never bought that names on tanks thing (or "identifying marks") thing either. Talk to any judge and they'll tell you that many fish are known fish, that appear regularly on show benches and therefore they know who the owner is. So all regularly shown fish already have an advantage if one were to be had - and I'd like to trust the judges independence too! Also, if I benched a breeding team of Pseudohemiodon sp. `marbled`, every one would know they're mine just like breeding Haras would be Adrians etc.

However, I don't think I've much of a right to suggest change as I'm neither a judge nor an exhibitor. I was just trying to explain why I suggested names on tanks.

Jools